Here’s my perspective. The desire to settle down, have a family, and do something meaningful comes to all people once they mature enough, irrespective of faith or politics. Some ignore it, and some never mature. I know many gay people that have gone through this transformation. It does not mean they have really changed. Why does anyone in our space listen to Woodgrains? We have this weakness that makes us jump on anyone who sees the sense in ‘our values’ once they realize the futility of theirs as they go through natural midlife biological changes. We need to stop doing this.
Second, you can’t lump men and women into the same basket, even if it seems more fair. It is perfectly fine and normal, and in this dating market almost essential, for men to wait until mid 30s to get married while establishing a high paying career. This is not ‘rolling the dice’. If you succeed in this, you will have NO problem finding a great woman whenever you’re ready, especially as the struggle will have likely transformed your character as well, and especially if you build your health and body. You will be so so far ahead of your competition, it’s almost ridiculous. And during this period you SHOULD have relationships with women or women will sniff out your inexperience on you (and you’ll probably become neurotic anyways) and also you should have fun and do things you love! Life actually is about also having fun, not just about kids.
Now, women can’t do this. This doesn’t work for them. They need to marry older men when in their mid to late twenties. This is the natural way hypergamy is satisfied in a society where men and women earn the same, which is obviously not ideal for the reproductive health of society. The age gap. It’s… ok. Really. Professional men do not struggle to adapt to family life in their 30s and 40s. Most of the older fathers I know are incredibly dads, and they have the money to give their children a much better upbringing in nice white neighborhoods and safe private high achieving schools.
If you are in a rural religious community this can be different. Those communities are generally very insular, and expecting young men to go that path is the real dice rolling. They usually trade a much higher paying job for the hope that they will be excepted enough for one of the young (maybe attractive) women to marry them, and then they roll the dice that they will be happy and not resentful afterwards.
>It does not mean they have really changed. Why does anyone in our space listen to Woodgrains? We have this weakness that makes us jump on anyone who sees the sense in ‘our values’ once they realize the futility of theirs as they go through natural midlife biological changes. We need to stop doing this.<
I don't mean to imply here that I approve of "gay marriage." Far from it. I consider sodomy contracts to be unacceptable, to put it mildly. I just didn't want to open that can of worms in this article because it needs to be a whole other post of its own.
>It is perfectly fine and normal, and in this dating market almost essential, for men to wait until mid 30s to get married while establishing a high paying career.<
This is the case because it usually takes until the mid 30s to establish enough financial success to attract a long-term mate under current economic conditions. The fact that this is the case does not mean that it should be the case. If you are making enough money and can find a suitable partner 10 years earlier, in your mid 20s, I don't see why you would delay marriage. You aren't getting any younger.
>And during this period you SHOULD have relationships with women or women will sniff out your inexperience on you (and you’ll probably become neurotic anyways) and also you should have fun and do things you love! Life actually is about also having fun, not just about kids.<
I agree as long as "having fun" doesn't mean being promiscuous and doing drugs. If it just means spending your time on hobbies or whatever, sure.
>The age gap. It’s… ok. Really. Professional men do not struggle to adapt to family life in their 30s and 40s.<
I agree that an age gap is not an insurmountable obstacle. But it is still an obstacle, and under ideal conditions, it would be removed. Therefore people should aim to avoid it if possible. We can see one negative consequence of this arrangement in the rise of incels--a society where women largely won't marry any men below 35 leaves an entire generation of men out in the cold, significantly shrinking the total marriageable population.
Hi Person, yes, those are good points. I think the main thing I differ from you on is that I think it’s ok and beneficial for men to have sexual relationships (girlfriends) in their 20s while building career. And who do they date? In practice in tends to be the 30 something women that misses the boat and don’t have dating prospects anyways. I say in practice, because these are the ones that throw themselves at you. Especially the ones the ones that diet, work out, and find men the type of older men that would have them (not usually very high on the scale men) disgusting. So it ends up not wasting the limited time of the 20 something women who are marriage eligible. Comparing this to doing drugs is a little extreme I think. Sex is natural healthy human behavior, even if you feel strongly it should only ever be in marriage (although I’ll point out that the biblical patriarchs didn’t seem to feel this way). Doing drugs is self destructive.
>I think the main thing I differ from you on is that I think it’s ok and beneficial for men to have sexual relationships (girlfriends) in their 20s while building career.<
Again I believe we are confusing an ought with an is. Is it *okay* to have monogamous sexual relationships that aren't marriage given the circumstances? Maybe. But it would obviously be better to just get married. We can once again see this borne out in the fact that the religious are both more likely to get married young *and* less likely to get divorced.
I agree that if you are going to be sexually active, it's better to do it in a stable monogamous relationship than to be promiscuous. But it's better than that to do it in a relationship that is aimed at marriage, and better than that still to actually wait until you're married. Even if most people fall short of this, holding it up as the ideal brings us as close as we can get to tying marriage, procreation and sex together. The more that people are allowed or even encouraged to stray from this ideal, the less marriage and the more promiscuity that you are going to get. That's just very basic human nature.
>Comparing this to doing drugs is a little extreme I think. Sex is natural healthy human behavior, even if you feel strongly it should only ever be in marriage<
Not if it's completely disconnected from procreation. If you're having sex with zero intention to bear any children as a result of it, then yes, it's now just a short-term feel-good rush. You could argue that it's not as bad as doing drugs, personally I'd just say the negative consequences are of a different nature.
No no no. You should never ever marry these 30 something women. They need to disappear childless as a cautionary generation.
You should wait and find a good mother for your children. Genetics. Values. Beauty. Youth. There are so many good young women. If you are attractive, white, and have potential for 200k+ with a little rizz you will have no problem. Just wait a bit. If that doesn’t describe your potential, then ok get married now I guess.
Another thing. There are MASSES of attractive mid 30s women who throw themselves at 20 something men and try to lock them down for marriage. They do this because other 30 year old men (and older) deem them too old. This is a TERRIBLE deal for men. I worry that this ‘kids at all cost and only while young’ advice will lead men into these relationships. The men will almost never be allowed to wear the pants, the women will suck their productivity their whole lives, they will likely encourage them to stay home and not improve their career and dating prospects for fear they’ll leave, and they may not even be able to have kids anymore. And if they can, they raise their kids to resent men and follow their path, which only prolongs this issue.
Don’t EVER marry these women. They need to wash away and be forgotten, a cautionary tale for future generations.
Here’s my perspective. The desire to settle down, have a family, and do something meaningful comes to all people once they mature enough, irrespective of faith or politics. Some ignore it, and some never mature. I know many gay people that have gone through this transformation. It does not mean they have really changed. Why does anyone in our space listen to Woodgrains? We have this weakness that makes us jump on anyone who sees the sense in ‘our values’ once they realize the futility of theirs as they go through natural midlife biological changes. We need to stop doing this.
Second, you can’t lump men and women into the same basket, even if it seems more fair. It is perfectly fine and normal, and in this dating market almost essential, for men to wait until mid 30s to get married while establishing a high paying career. This is not ‘rolling the dice’. If you succeed in this, you will have NO problem finding a great woman whenever you’re ready, especially as the struggle will have likely transformed your character as well, and especially if you build your health and body. You will be so so far ahead of your competition, it’s almost ridiculous. And during this period you SHOULD have relationships with women or women will sniff out your inexperience on you (and you’ll probably become neurotic anyways) and also you should have fun and do things you love! Life actually is about also having fun, not just about kids.
Now, women can’t do this. This doesn’t work for them. They need to marry older men when in their mid to late twenties. This is the natural way hypergamy is satisfied in a society where men and women earn the same, which is obviously not ideal for the reproductive health of society. The age gap. It’s… ok. Really. Professional men do not struggle to adapt to family life in their 30s and 40s. Most of the older fathers I know are incredibly dads, and they have the money to give their children a much better upbringing in nice white neighborhoods and safe private high achieving schools.
If you are in a rural religious community this can be different. Those communities are generally very insular, and expecting young men to go that path is the real dice rolling. They usually trade a much higher paying job for the hope that they will be excepted enough for one of the young (maybe attractive) women to marry them, and then they roll the dice that they will be happy and not resentful afterwards.
>It does not mean they have really changed. Why does anyone in our space listen to Woodgrains? We have this weakness that makes us jump on anyone who sees the sense in ‘our values’ once they realize the futility of theirs as they go through natural midlife biological changes. We need to stop doing this.<
I don't mean to imply here that I approve of "gay marriage." Far from it. I consider sodomy contracts to be unacceptable, to put it mildly. I just didn't want to open that can of worms in this article because it needs to be a whole other post of its own.
>It is perfectly fine and normal, and in this dating market almost essential, for men to wait until mid 30s to get married while establishing a high paying career.<
This is the case because it usually takes until the mid 30s to establish enough financial success to attract a long-term mate under current economic conditions. The fact that this is the case does not mean that it should be the case. If you are making enough money and can find a suitable partner 10 years earlier, in your mid 20s, I don't see why you would delay marriage. You aren't getting any younger.
>And during this period you SHOULD have relationships with women or women will sniff out your inexperience on you (and you’ll probably become neurotic anyways) and also you should have fun and do things you love! Life actually is about also having fun, not just about kids.<
I agree as long as "having fun" doesn't mean being promiscuous and doing drugs. If it just means spending your time on hobbies or whatever, sure.
>The age gap. It’s… ok. Really. Professional men do not struggle to adapt to family life in their 30s and 40s.<
I agree that an age gap is not an insurmountable obstacle. But it is still an obstacle, and under ideal conditions, it would be removed. Therefore people should aim to avoid it if possible. We can see one negative consequence of this arrangement in the rise of incels--a society where women largely won't marry any men below 35 leaves an entire generation of men out in the cold, significantly shrinking the total marriageable population.
Hi Person, yes, those are good points. I think the main thing I differ from you on is that I think it’s ok and beneficial for men to have sexual relationships (girlfriends) in their 20s while building career. And who do they date? In practice in tends to be the 30 something women that misses the boat and don’t have dating prospects anyways. I say in practice, because these are the ones that throw themselves at you. Especially the ones the ones that diet, work out, and find men the type of older men that would have them (not usually very high on the scale men) disgusting. So it ends up not wasting the limited time of the 20 something women who are marriage eligible. Comparing this to doing drugs is a little extreme I think. Sex is natural healthy human behavior, even if you feel strongly it should only ever be in marriage (although I’ll point out that the biblical patriarchs didn’t seem to feel this way). Doing drugs is self destructive.
>I think the main thing I differ from you on is that I think it’s ok and beneficial for men to have sexual relationships (girlfriends) in their 20s while building career.<
Again I believe we are confusing an ought with an is. Is it *okay* to have monogamous sexual relationships that aren't marriage given the circumstances? Maybe. But it would obviously be better to just get married. We can once again see this borne out in the fact that the religious are both more likely to get married young *and* less likely to get divorced.
I agree that if you are going to be sexually active, it's better to do it in a stable monogamous relationship than to be promiscuous. But it's better than that to do it in a relationship that is aimed at marriage, and better than that still to actually wait until you're married. Even if most people fall short of this, holding it up as the ideal brings us as close as we can get to tying marriage, procreation and sex together. The more that people are allowed or even encouraged to stray from this ideal, the less marriage and the more promiscuity that you are going to get. That's just very basic human nature.
>Comparing this to doing drugs is a little extreme I think. Sex is natural healthy human behavior, even if you feel strongly it should only ever be in marriage<
Not if it's completely disconnected from procreation. If you're having sex with zero intention to bear any children as a result of it, then yes, it's now just a short-term feel-good rush. You could argue that it's not as bad as doing drugs, personally I'd just say the negative consequences are of a different nature.
Also, being a 30 yo virgin is very bad.
No no no. You should never ever marry these 30 something women. They need to disappear childless as a cautionary generation.
You should wait and find a good mother for your children. Genetics. Values. Beauty. Youth. There are so many good young women. If you are attractive, white, and have potential for 200k+ with a little rizz you will have no problem. Just wait a bit. If that doesn’t describe your potential, then ok get married now I guess.
What a fag…
Another thing. There are MASSES of attractive mid 30s women who throw themselves at 20 something men and try to lock them down for marriage. They do this because other 30 year old men (and older) deem them too old. This is a TERRIBLE deal for men. I worry that this ‘kids at all cost and only while young’ advice will lead men into these relationships. The men will almost never be allowed to wear the pants, the women will suck their productivity their whole lives, they will likely encourage them to stay home and not improve their career and dating prospects for fear they’ll leave, and they may not even be able to have kids anymore. And if they can, they raise their kids to resent men and follow their path, which only prolongs this issue.
Don’t EVER marry these women. They need to wash away and be forgotten, a cautionary tale for future generations.